On actor interactions

[nny]

Okay, now I've had the time to discuss this with a whole bunch of people, to clarify my point in my head as well as on screen, I'm going to expand on what I was saying in my earlier post. But first, some context for the uninitiated.

A while back, Joe Flanigan was at a con and was telling a story about how sometimes, when other actors are filming reaction shots, he'll screw around and feed them a completely different line. And for an example, he said "I love you, Dr McKay." Naturally there was a huge amount of squealing, applause, all that sort of thing, and fans have since ripped the .mp3 and made it phone friendly and all sorts. It was an awesome fandom moment and it's made us happy for a hell of a long time. Then, at Shore Leave, some fans asked David Hewlett for a response to this, feeding him the line 'I love you too, John Sheppard'. This was filmed, posted on youtube and is linked to on mckay_sheppard if anyone wants to see it.



Here's the thing. I have nothing against the people who filmed it and posted it, but I disagree with their actions; I don't think that it's something we should ask for. Actors are aware of fan culture - it's what they live off, especially in sci-fi shows like Stargate: Atlantis because we are big geeks. It's what we do. And sometimes actors will play along with it, and they'll acknowledge it, because they're also aware of how ridiculously happy that can make us. See Joe Flanigan's comment, see Michael Shanks lisping happily, see Paul Gross talking about how much slash will be written about the new guy. Fandom is a secret that they allow us to keep, in many ways, and it seems to work.

The key thing, though, is that we must allow the actors to establish their own comfort zones with this. It's awesome to have Joe tease the McSheppers, even if he's not aware exactly that that's what he's doing, but asking David Hewlett to buy into and directly condone the subset of fandom is a different thing altogether. Yes, it makes me uncomfortable, since it crosses a line that I've drawn in my head between acceptable and unacceptable fannish interaction, but that's my personal reaction and that has little impact on you. There is the potential, though, that incidents like this can have an impact on the status quo that we love, and that's something that has the potential to affect a hell of a lot of people.

David Hewlett's an awesome guy. He's the most incredibly fan-friendly celebrity I've come across, and he's ridiculously generous with his time and with his life. He has been a fanboy and he gets us in a big way, so something like this is relatively 'safe' to put to him. But if he goes back to the SG:A set and talks to Joe Flanigan - who is far more reticent and has shown himself to be less understanding of the fan culture surrounding the show - about what's been going on, that might have a knock on effect on the kind of things that Joe feels comfortable saying in interviews and at cons. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it's something that should be considered.

We invest a hell of a lot of time, effort and emotion into fandom. But that doesn't give us rights to push for what we want from actors who are individuals, and not the people we build them up to be in our heads.

Personally? I prefer for them to relax with fans as a whole, to be able to joke, to be able to give us the occasional nod and sly wink when they feel comfortable doing so, because it's so much more awesome when it's off the cuff and unexpected and an acknowledgement of what we do and think and create. It's fannish life to extrapolate and twist things to fit and to occasionally take what is offered to us on a silver platter. To ask for more when there's already so much on offer doesn't sit well with me.

I really hope that that made sense, and that I covered all the points that I meant to. More than willing to discuss in the comments because, as with any and all posts made within fandom, your mileage may vary.

Comments

[liz666.livejournal.com]

I saw the post on MckaySheppard and watched it-it was kinda awful putting him in that position. And he was clearly uncomfortable yet still trying to smile through it. I agree with you that from what little I know of the actors, David Hewlett is more at ease with the fans but the possibility of a negative impact following this sort of behaviour by a minority of fans should have been taken into account by the culprits. But it's doubtful that it even crossed their minds.

Hopefully such a consequence won't happen, that this will be an isolated event but I'm wondering how many people watched that and thought 'wow, that's what I'm going to do when I get to see them at a con!'

And you totally made sense to me <3

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Hopefully such a consequence won't happen, that this will be an isolated event but I'm wondering how many people watched that and thought 'wow, that's what I'm going to do when I get to see them at a con!'

Which is where you run the risk of the next person taking it one step further.

*squishes* I make sense to you because your brain is as loopy as mine. It's pleasing.

[indy-go.livejournal.com]

It does make sense, and even without having seen it, it makes me cringey and angry. Sci fi fans have an uphill battle to begin with because everyone assumes we're going to be crazy and socially awkward and stalkery. It paints all of us with the same icky brush, and I wish fans would think and realize that these actors are just people. They're at our mercy, in a lot of ways. And just like we want respect from the writers and the actors, they want the respect from the fans. And that wasn't respectful at all.

Now I hope I'm making sense. *wry smile*

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Okay, first things first?

HI YOU! *squishes tight!*

And yes, you make sense. As much as fans want to be individual snowflakes and recognised as such by actors, we are (except for very very rare incidents) a crowd of Fan. And Fan is as Fan does, and all that.

Hee. I'm so sensical, it's the 2am that does it.

[mercuriazs.livejournal.com]

You both make sense and I think you're awesome. Which is about all I have to contribute, but there you are.

[genarti]

What Merc said! You are both pretty much saying exactly what I think.

Slash (etc) is one of those things that's out there for the actors and writers to find, and it's really not hard to run across if they're inclined to look rather than to back away at the first hint. But they have the right to be as involved or as clueless as they want to be. Just because we create works based on what they've done, and ideas of the characters (and actors), doesn't mean that we're entitled to have them participate in our end of it.

[roxy-palace.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with you more. The idea of putting these people in that position is beyond squicky. It makes me ashamed of fandom. It makes me question what I'm doing messing around in it.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

I could never really extract myself from fandom, because for every incident like this there are things like livelongnmarry which is just incredible and really shows what an awesome force fandom can be. Just sometimes it seems like stuff like that gives us a sense of entitlement towards things we don't have a right to.

[darthrami.livejournal.com]

Yes. yes yes.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

:D

[beeej.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw that vid. It has a definite, "Dance, monkey, dance!" vibe to it.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

I kinda didn't want to put it that way, but yes. That's exactly it.

D:

[doctorfumbles.livejournal.com]

*de-lurks*

Agreed. I didn't watch the video because the idea of putting David in that position weirds me out a little too much. I definitely agree with you about the line in your head for acceptable and unacceptable fan interaction.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Hey! Always nice to meet a lurker. :D

I think things are always better unsolicited, whatever the medium you're talking about. I was definitely made uncomfortable by the video, and I kinda wish I hadn't watched it now. It's totally not going to detract from the enjoyment of the mp3 of Joe, though. XD

[gules]

uh, yeah, i was linked to that video by someone who was fairly enthusiastic about it, and even with a positive buildup it just triggered my embarrassment-squick. agreed, on all counts.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

I have such a strong contact embarrassment squick, I'm right there with you.

[mary-russell11.livejournal.com]

wow...I saw it yesterday, cringed so much my face still hurts and immediately after stumbled upon your 1st post regarding this; I debated then whether to post and decided not to but now...yes.yes. a thousand times yes. you have stolen my words out of my brain(I'll have to sue for copyright infringement*g*) this is exactly why I often feel extremely uncomfortable in fandom although I love it immensely; I simply do not want or need to know anything about actors' private lives-unless they offer it, like DH...and that extends to making them do sth like this...yes, they get paid to act and to appear at cons and promote their show and do interviews...that still does not grant us with any kind of right on them...what you said about them creating their comfort zones..I couldn't have said it better so I won't try to either*points to your awesome text* just...my ickniness level shot through the roof and I hate that...and yes, your example of a hypothetical situation where DH shares this with JFlan and that changes his approach to the show and fans...yes*is irritated with her number of yes-es* that was my thought too...I can see it happen and that's why it bothers me so much when I see fannish creations like this one(and really, I don't mean to offend those fans, just...)...we don't own these people which is what I think some fans consciously or unconsciously think...IMO, at least*is done*
Edit: just so we're clear, I used this „incident“ to make broader observations; I'm saying this cause I've noticed a couple of people dear to me responding to your post and disagreeing so I wouldn't want to seem as being judgmental of their opinions...but I still stand by my words*g*

[villainny.livejournal.com]

The argument was mostly over the context of it, the joking that had gone on previously, and I do understand that DH is very accommodating to fans and that makes it more difficult; as I said at the beginning, I have nothing against the people who made or argued for the video. But I still don't agree with it.

I totally agree with you - it all comes down to ideas of ownership and respect.

[perardua.livejournal.com]

You make perfect sense! I couldn't bring myself to watch the vid, as just the thought of it was too embarrassing for me.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not going to watch it again. It's amazing what a difference context can make - the Flan vid unfailingly makes me so happy.

*facepalms*

[naye]

I think you're wonderfully eloquent on this issue, and just wanted to say thanks for sorting it all out in text so I can sit here and go "what she said!". ♥ (Also? ICK. Seriously, this is making me cringe so bad I could hardly read your account of events...)

[villainny.livejournal.com]

*squishes*

Eloquence is something I'm so rarely accused of. Thank you kindly!

[emeraldsword.livejournal.com]

Yes, I did find that vid weird and uncomfortable-making but I didn't really get why - I thought it was good of him to say it but what actually happened and the links I saw about it didn't mesh at all. You've just put into words exactly what was strange about the whole situation, so thank you.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

This is what's so wonderful about fandom - I couldn't articulate it myself until I'd talked it through with various people and sorted out precisely what I meant. I rarely make thoughtful posts like this because I'm dreadful at working things through in my head without someone to bounce ideas off.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom, and thank you so much for this. Why do we need actors to participate in or validate our fannish pursuits anyway?

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. They provide us with the canon and they provide us with the autographs and stuff, that's what they're paid for. Participation from actors and such is more likely to undermine than support what we love, so it's really not worth it.

Meta zeitgiest

[losyark.livejournal.com]

Wow, a weekend of cons all over the country has created a bit of a meta zeitgiest, between this post and Annienau08's post here: http://annienau08.livejournal.com/12205.html

I had a similar uncomfortable experience at Polaris this weekend, while watching both Rachell Luttrell and Gareth David-Lloyd speak. The first, there was a woman who claimed to have gone to highschool with Ms. Luttrell, and while she may have, that didn't make them buddies. The woman seemed to think so and it frankly freaked me out. (I'm pretty sure it freaked out Ms. Luttrell, too.)

In other instances, fans acted as if they knew the actors personally and I wanted to - as I said on Annienau's post - grab them and shake them and yell "Just because she is on your TV once a week does not make you BFF. You are just one person in a sea of autographs she signed last time. She doesn't know you from adam. STOP."

In the second, it was this very strange sort of cult of celebrity idol worship thing. Someone in the audience had a puppy with her, and Mr. David-Lloyd, who had commented that he missed his dogs, asked if he could hold the pup for a while. When he gave it back, suddenly people wanted pictures with the dog - like some of the divinity had worn off Mr. David-Lloyd and onto the idol that the dog became. The poor thing was terrified!

There's this incredible push by some fans to just BE A PART of a clebrity's life, however they can, like as if spending hundreds of dollars to go to cons, getting pictures of dogs they've cuddled, and spending more money while there to get photos done and autographs somehow makes them friends, which somehow makes them part of that world of making the television stories, and THAT somehow makes them a part of the show (the world that the show represents).

Most fans can awknowledge that it is just a fantasy and can seperate person-doing-his-job-in-a-studio from Charcter-X-who-really-lives-on-Atlantis and accept that. They play make-believe while the show is on, along with the actors and creators, dabble in fandom and enjoy the world, then close the laptop and put it away. There are others who scare me, whose belief in the world, and whose desperation to get into it (and I'm not talking about the cosplayers or people who make Star Trek sets in their apartments, that's cool because they're playing in the world in ways that awknoledge it's constructed-ness), far trancends harmless play-along make believe and casts illusions on to the creators, writers, and actors.

And that? That's not fair.

It's not fair to the people as individuals, and it's not fair because it doesn't recognize how much bloody hard work they put in as talented people in a creative field.

Also, may I quote your post and any of your responses to me in my MA thesis on cliches in scifi?

Re: Meta zeitgiest

[villainny.livejournal.com]

"Just because she is on your TV once a week does not make you BFF. You are just one person in a sea of autographs she signed last time. She doesn't know you from adam. STOP."

Yes. Yes exactly. Even if, wonder of wonders, they do remember a fan from another con, their name, or the shirt they're wearing again, what have you - that does not in any way indicate a personal relationship. There's a possibility that the internet culture is unhelpful here, both in that it's easier to access celebrities and communicate with them, and because the definition of the word 'friend' has changed so much what with 'friends lists' on sites like LJ and Facebook. I'm a linguistics graduate and I cannot help but analyse it linguistically, and ideas such as Sapir and Whorf's 'Mould Theory' indicate that not only does thought affect language, but language affects thought. Someone might be interested in the fiction you write or the meta on your journal without knowing (or necessarily wanting to know) anything about you as an individual, yet the internet will insist that they have 'friended' you.

I mean, it's kind of a social boost when a BNF friends you, for example, and if someone like David Hewlett responds to you on forums...

It is an issue of fairness, and it is an issue of respect, and this video falls far short of both.

Thanks for your comment, it was interesting to read and respond to - helped me clarify my thought process further, which is fun.

And... yes you may quote me, although I have no idea how I'd be relevant. I'm sorry I'm so late responding to you, also. :D

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wouldn't really advise it. It made me uncomfortable.

[neevebrody.livejournal.com]

You make perfect sense and actually stated the matter quite deftly. I watched the video not really knowing what it was at first/thinking it was a joke - as you do with DH. I felt so bad for him - he was clearly uncomfortable and then to have the fans ask AGAIN - do it with more "emotion" - I was just speechless. Could they not see he was uncomfortable? No, and I know they didn't care. And DH, in his very sweet and wanting-to-please way, did it. If I had been anywhere around I would have been mortified, for the fans as well as for DH. This was so far across the line and the others at the SGA set don't have to wait for DH to mention it - the thing is plastered all over the internets now. I also agree with your concern that things like this could affect what our favorite actors are willing to discuss at cons and the like. Or what if they should decide to forgo them altogether. *shakes head*

Thank you for your post.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your response! I only managed to be articulate about it due to having discussed it from a number of different angles in my previous post; it took a while to get past just the initial reaction of the fact that it was somehow icky.

There are actors who choose not to do cons precisely because of this kind of thing; if anything we should be trying to help them be more comfortable when asking them into our space. It's like indy_go said above - just like we want respect from the writers and actors, they want (and deserve) respect from us.

[klangley56.livejournal.com]

Well, we live in the fannish era of RPS and all--some fans *do* think they own the actors and are entitled to every aspect of their lives.

And since fans have been doing goofy things like bringing slash up to actors at cons for . . . oh, the last 30 years, I don't see the behavior changing any time soon.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

This is sadly true, but that doesn't lessen the fact that I disagree with it.

[lilas.livejournal.com]

(via metafandom) Ugh... I haven't watched the video and won't, but reading about DH's being uncomfortable during it made me cringe. At that point it's no different than hecklers IMO. Gah. *squirm*

People need to separate fantasy from reality, when they're dealing in person with real people. I completely agree with you when you say: we must allow the actors to establish their own comfort zones with this.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. There will always be some fans that do step over the line, but it's reassuring to see responses like yours to this post; the recognition that it isn't acceptable, to us.

[ionaonie.livejournal.com]

I just...seriously? People did this?

And then they asked him to do it again?

That is so far over the line that they must become about to cross it again.

So many actors (and DH in particular) are amazingly generous with the time they spend with fans and what they do for us that I get so embarrassed when people expect them to go above and beyond.

I've only been to a couple of Cons but there is nearly always at least one question that has me cringing and wanting to tell people that they aren't in a fantasy and the actors aren't puppets.

Grrrrrr!

[villainny.livejournal.com]

they aren't in a fantasy and the actors aren't puppets.

Absolutely. That's what it boils down to - respecting actors just as they (by agreeing to give us this time and answer our questions) respect us.

(ALSO OMG SHELDOOOON!!!!!)

[cafe-ennui.livejournal.com]

It may be the aliens that get a bad press, but really? Fans Made Them Do It!

I agree, actors should be allowed to establish their own comfort zones. We really shouldn't push these things on them.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Fans are the scourge of the galaxy. YAY US!

XD

[khyrra.livejournal.com]

I actually got the feeling that he was a little uncomfortable with the request(it's hard to tell, he might have just been giving the requester a hard time). I felt like he was only playing along(and obviously not giving exactly the lovey dovey portrayal they were looking for) because he is that nice and accommodating to his fans. But it weirded me out just watching.

[keiko-kirin.livejournal.com]

(here via lamardeuse)
This is such a great post! Reflects my thoughts exactly. I'm memming it, if that's okay. :)