Evil angel

[nny]

Here're some ramblings on Good Omens. And what Aziraphale would be like, should he Fall.



I think... the fundamental difference between angels and demons, in Good Omens, is that angels love others and demons love themselves.

Crowley and Aziraphale, obviously, are exceptions to this rule, since they love each other madly (do not deny it).

Seriously, though- Aziraphale and Crowley have very much been an influence on each other, as well as humans having an influence on them, throughout the time they've known each other. This is canon. There also might well be something in their personalities that made them more amenable to this, but I think spending six thousand years away from their respective Higher Powers has profoundly changed them.

Crowley is vain. Cheekbones indicates he keeps himself trim, I reckon, dark hair would indicate he's young, he likes expensive things- I have my copy of Good Omens here, but I can't be bothered to look up references, so some of my information might be woefully inaccurate. However I seem to remember it saying that he has... expensive computer equipment he's never used? Possibly? Oh bollocks to it-

"..a sleek computer was the sort of thing Crowley felt that the sort of human he tried to be would have." There. Reference. Happy? *g* This indicates, since he doesn't use it, that it is fundamentally for outward appearances. Wanting to impress others. Arrogance and pride.

Aziraphale on the other hand, much as the image does please me, is not Paul Bettany. He's older than Madame Tracy thought he would be, and the only real indication of what he looks like is that he's got... chubby fingers, was it? He's not out to tempt, so his physical form isn't nearly so important. He's probably more along the lines of comforting. Thewlis Lupin comes to mind. His flat- "He pushed aside the paper-laden desk and rolled up the treadbare bookshop carpet." The angel has things that are used, and used hard- waste not, want not. And such.

The indication that they've had influence on each other is most obvious in what they do- Crowley bringing the dove back to life, Aziraphale setting fire to the traffic warden's notebook- but there are indications in the way that they are, too. I'm afraid I know Aziraphale far better than I know Crowley, since I have more than a little soft spot for the angel, so my arguments might be a little one sided, but...

Aziraphale is rather greedy. Examples:

"No salt, no eggs. No gravlax with dill sauce. No fascinating little restaurants where they know you..."

"[Heaven has]... not one single Sushi restaurant."

He also tends towards the vain- manicured nails, expensive shirts.

Crowley, on the other hand... I would argue that his ridiculous attachment to the Bentley, his house plants, would be an indication that he's more human. Can you see Hastur and Ligur getting attached to those kind of things? This quote might be considered a little ridiculous to refer to such things, but Iris Murdoch said "Love is the extremely difficult realisation that something other than oneself is real." If demons are self centred, which is where my argument rests, then such an attachment shows Aziraphale's influence.

*

Speculations about Fallen Aziraphale, then. Writing this bit will be most uncomfortable, since I really don't like the idea, but if I'm gonna attempt to write him I must forge on. Right.

Fallen Aziraphale would be vainer, but I think... probably the greed would remain, but he would engineer matters to ensure he stayed trim. He might change his outward appearance to be more tempting... Fallen Aziraphale can be Paul Bettany. (Yes, I have a small obsession, shut up.) He would probably be far more a follower of fashion.

He wouldn't update the bookshop. He wouldn't keep the bookshop. He would be completely self-absorbed; it would complete the effect that Crowley had been having on him. He would no longer have an interest in anything so very human.

For that, though, I don't think his behaviour would change overmuch. After six thousand years, I think there are certain patterns of behaviour that ingrain themselves. He'd probably be far less polite, but over-intelligently so. Insults through cutting remarks that might go entirely over the recipient's head. He'd remain very English, but in the manner of stereotypical British villains.

He'd know how to get people on his side in an entirely different way than Crowley, because he'd remember empathy. He wouldn't feel it, but would remember it enough to turn it to his advantage.

I think that's all, for the moment. This isn't the most coherent thing I've ever written, because I'm still very much turning it over in my head, so I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have, anything you'd like to argue about with me.

I still don't like the idea. Makes me itchy.

Comments

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

I still don't like the idea. Makes me itchy.

Then that is, perhaps, telling.

As usual, I'm going to be honest and say that I don't understand several fixations that exist in this fandom, and the recent fixation with Fallen Aziraphale is one of them. Isn't the whole point of the matter that neither one is any better or any worse than the other? They've reached stasis. They're nearly human. They're standing toe to toe on a line that doesn't exist, and sometimes they step across and switch places -- and nobody knows the difference. Aziraphale has no further to fall, and Crowley would probably deny that he's to a certain point redeemed, but he is, nonetheless, if you look at it in those terms. They've been this way for at least a few centuries leading up to book canon (perhaps longer; the question is how long after the Agreement they really started to enjoy each other's company), and the PTBs seem content (or lazy) enough to leave things be. As is Adam. I think that's why the imposition of any further transformation upon either one results in, well, OOCness.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

The point of fanfiction, though, is to ponder points that aren't in fiction. It's just something to think about. Aziraphale certainly has further to fall. He's more at risk there than Crowley, because what precisely would Hell do? They could punish him, certainly, but they can't change who he is. For Aziraphale, that is still an option. The reason I'm interested in this is precisely because it would be such a challenge to write in a way that would make it believable- someone that's still essentially Aziraphale. To make the character recognisable with something so fundamental changed.

Every fanfic writer writes something that's OOC, because out of character is the same as out of canon. We cannot get it spot on. The challenge is to make something that is as close as you can get it.

It's just something I find interesting, while knowing that it's something that will never happen because the story ends where the book does. I can always comfort myself with canon.

I respect your opinion, though. I do genuinely aim for as close to the character as I can get- how far I'm successful isn't for me to judge, really- and this wouldn't be. But I'm still interested.

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

The point of fanfiction, though, is to ponder points that aren't in fiction.

I think that this is the point upon which you and I fundamentally differ; that couldn't be farther from the way I always understood/do understand it. I'm going to quote a panelist that I once listened to, because I think she said it better than I ever could: Canon is the reason that we write fanfiction. If you're altering the characters to the point that they no longer resemble themselves, where does that leave you? In an AU, arguably, but if you were to strip away the names, it would have nothing to do with the source.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

but if you were to strip away the names, it would have nothing to do with the source.

That's something I'd not be interested in doing. That's kind of the point. Writing something that is still recognisably Aziraphale.

But I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this, no matter how I might argue it. *grins*

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

But I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this, no matter how I might argue it. *grins*

That I can agree with ;)

[queeniefox.livejournal.com]

If you're altering the characters to the point that they no longer resemble themselves, where does that leave you?

I'm in total agreement. I think that pondering points that aren't dealt with in canon, either by filling in the gaps or by exploring possibilities is the entire point but not if you make the characters different from their original forms. Sometimes it works in a one off AU but even then I find it pointless.

I've seen good writers make strange things work though, while keeping people in character. I've yet to see it done with this issue yet though, and I'm sceptical that it could be. It doesn't work in terms of where the characters are at, - which is basically that they're as near to human as makes no odds. (Tt doesn't work in terms of the larger mythology that P and G are working in either - the angels only fell once!)

[lunarennui.livejournal.com]

i agree with this. while crowley has sauntered vaguely downward, aziraphale has sidled vaguely over there *points* and neither have really done a good job of being what they're supposed to be. what they've managed is to come to, well, an Agreement, which is pretty much human. crowley's no more a good demon than aziraphale is a good angel. i honestly can't see any way in which aziraphale could fall--no more than i could see crowley 'falling' from being a devil. they've reached equilibrium.

i suppose, in my mind, both have already fallen--or rather drunkenly stumbled into the same gutter (at which point they decide to sober up, aziraphale complains about the dust on his tartan jacket, and crowley smirks while being secretly annoyed about the dust on HIS jacket).

that said, i really like every part of this post up until the fallen!aziraphale part.

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

or rather drunkenly stumbled into the same gutter

That's quite possibly the best metaphor for both of them that I have ever heard :)

[lunarennui.livejournal.com]

i win!

[villainny.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what irisbleu said. Exellent metaphor. *g*

I'm glad you like the rest of the post. To be honest... I'd be more disturbed by this if it were someone like irisbleu, or bravecows... someone who I consider to write spot-on fanfic. My drabbles and ficlets are never gonna be a central part of fandom, so I don't see it as mattering what I write, particularly. I'm not gonna be affecting anyone's opinion, so much.

Um. Except possibly in my RP, maybe. But that angel is NEVER gonna Fall. *g*

[lunarennui.livejournal.com]

hey, it always matters when someone writes something, even if not everyone agrees with it. i just think it's an interesting discussion--i never really thought about aziraphale falling until this post.

[aura218.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't call their "falling" inherently bad, though; they may be bad at their jobs, but maybe the job descriptions need to be redefined. It goes back to ineffability - The Big Boss (God) knows his agents and their temperments. He wouldn't arrange/assign/whatever C and A to be on earth if they weren't supposed to turn out that way. (I'm not speaking religously about this; I'm speaking of God as a character as outlined by TP&NG, not anyone's actual diety, b/c that'd be OT.) So the flaws in A and C's characters are "suposed" to be there, so to speak. Maybe angels and demons who go a little native are the best ones to do the job -- Crowley did say that the greatest kindness and the worst cruelty is what humans do to each other.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

That is an excellent point.

*applauds*

[aura218.livejournal.com]

*blush* Aw shucks.

Thanks.

[rheasilvia.livejournal.com]

Hm.

I can't say that I have passionate convictions on whether or not AUs with a fallen Aziraphale should be written. I do consider it a potentially interesting plot - it all depends on where the author runs with it - but that's certainly not because I don't like Aziraphale as the slightly greyish angel he is. :-)

Anyway, my take on what he's be like if he *were* to fall is very different from yours... For one thing, I don't think Aziraphale would be vainer, or that he'd necessarily feel the need to give himself a more attractive form. Why? Vanity doesn't seem to be a vice Aziraphale is inclined to, and I doubt there are "general" vices that automatically attach themselves to any fallen angel. Not all demons have to tempt humans physically and in person - not even Crowley seems to do this much. But Crowley is simply too vain to inhabit a body that is anything less than attractive, young and fit.

Fallen!Aziraphale, OTOH, I could see as abandoning even the relatively small amount of care that he previously has for his physical form - because looking presentable (i.e., conforming to societal norms) and not letting yourself go (gluttony *is* a very popular sin, after all) would no longer be concerns for him. He wouldn't care what he looked like *at all* anymore, IMO, and would be fairly likely to stuff himself silly, drink a lot, and be a right disgusting slob.

And I think he would *definitely* keep the books, though perhaps not the store. Books, as I see Aziraphale, are his greatest vice. An angel has no business becoming attached to earthly objects, no matter what kinds of objects, and Aziraphale is definitely more than attached to his books - he covets them and craves them and lusts after them to the point where he will actually steal to get a rare edition. In combination with his attachment to The Enemy in the form of Crowley - this passion is what I could see as by far the most probable cause of his downfall.

So I imagine that Fallen!Aziraphale would eventually become a book collector of the most ruthless and brutal kind. Why should his interest in books cease? Attachment to material and ultimately transitory things is a very popular vice that can lead to very many sins. As an angel, he is far too attached to books. As a demon, not at all! Carry on, by all means, good job.

[tootsiemuppet.livejournal.com]

Actually, I found myself afreeing with villainny on the vanity thing. Aziraphale IS vain and would be more so if he wouldn't feel guilty about it. There's the "gros bon ange" comment he gets all defensive at, the jokes about principalities he's sensitive about, he's disappointed to see Adam put him back into his own body... He's not particularly pleased with the way he looks. I always thought that was one of the first things he would change if he could.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Aziraphale is so sensitive about his weight - it's obvious from all the little comments that he's bit portly these days. I think he is vain, although there's a definite suggestion of over-fastidiousness-- I'm thinking of his neat nails and the way he won't touch any of the surfaces in Shadwell's flat-- rather than having any great wish for physical beauty. It contrasts oddly with the shabby appearance of his shop, but that shows up his odd foibles and his very human way of acting exactly to suit his own interests - he only keeps his shop shabby to discourage customers, I'm sure.

I wrote an AU in which evil!Aziraphale was obsessed with clothes and fashion, but having read Sylvia's suggestion, I like her idea more- that he'd just stop bothering what anyone thought and would let himself go. I can imagine him thinking that if he didn't have to bother anymore then he wouldn't - he is terribly lazy after all and he seems to do as little as he can get away with.

I can see the attraction of writing a truly evil Aziraphale, because the potential is right there under the surface - he's really not very nice- selfish, greedy and lazy. But to write A as evil I think you would need to do a full AU. As it is, Aziraphale is pretty much fallen already: Crowley and Aziraphale are exactly as good and as bad as each other and that's what living on earth has done to them. Aziraphale has not so much fallen as become human. I don't think officially falling would do much else to him, except to make him more bad tempered:D

[melannen.livejournal.com]

I think I agree with what most of the other commenters here have had to say-- I don't think falling would change his essential nature at all. To me, the keynote of angels and demons in GO is Crowley's line from the end of the prologue, about wouldn't it be funny if he'd done the good thing, and Aziraphale had done the bad thing?

They don't automatically know what's good and bad any more than we do, they just have to muddle along trying and hope the Powers don't catch them in a mistake. So Falling wouldn't change that. If Aziraphale fell now, I think the only difference would be that he'd stop making excuses for the various evil things he does, and start making excuses for the good ones. . . that's about it, really. And he'd probably hang around and get on Crowley's nerves a lot more. q:

Something like Afrai's Cahpriel and Zirah, I can believe, with six thousand years of backstory and the torments of Hell and the war in Heaven changing people. But the central *story* of GO is that angels and demons are the *same*, that's why Adam has a *choice*... so that's why I can't really get around a premise which says that the mere condition of falling would change him, rather than the circumstances and decisions that led up to his Fall. (I liked copperbadge's flopsy, but to me, an Aziraphale who would choose to Fall into the arms of a handsome young man is already quite changed from who he was in the books; it wasn't the Fall, it was Adam.)

[biichan.livejournal.com]

And he'd keep his books. He'd just be eviller about how he got ahold of them.

[aura218.livejournal.com]

Afrai's Zirah, though, is more than fallen, he's mad. And wracked with grief and guilt. So I dunno that *every* fallen Az would be this way. (And I say that having just pimped that story in this thread as evidence for a fallen Az, so now I guess I retract it. But not the rec - that story rules.)

[villainny.livejournal.com]

It's something I've always meant to get around to reading, but I get so frustrated with WIPs...

[aura218.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know, I was pretty upset to reach the end. (Does anyone know her? Has she abandoned it? She didn't answer my E.) But I'm glad I read it, b/c what's there is very good, and the ending is kinda predictable so I didn't feel terribly cliffhung.

[aura218.livejournal.com]

I dunno that I would call Aziraphale greedy. The idea is that these characters have "gone native." Az's reliance on material things, to me, speaks of comfort, not of greed. While Crowley is fine with change (updates his computer -- b/c it's a fun toy -- and keeps up with fashion), Az has the middle age attutide of "this is how it's supposed to be." Cardigans, 50s styles, old world manners. Az doesn't want to return to heaven because he's comfortable in his routine.

Re: Az falling. I think he'd be just as seemingly kind, but with a cruel streak, as in an indifference to cruelty. He'd still behave kindly and with good manners, but would think nothing of killing an innocent, beacause, as you said, demons don't love other things.

I see demons as sociopaths (and Crowly as a reformed sociopath, if such a thing were possible). No guilt, no conscience. Many sociopaths are very charming and polite; they know how to play the game to get people to trust them. Az's ingrained politeness would remain, as it would be a tool for his demonic games.

[aura218.livejournal.com]

FWIW: There's a very good (albiet abandoned) story on this theme. If Az had fallen and Cr remained an angel. "The Sacred and the Profane" (http://thewritegirls.populli.net/afrai/tsatp.html) by afrai. Selections:

"It's so small," [Zirah] crooned in the reverent whisper only a true worshipper of babies can manage. "Here you are. What a little sweetheart you are. Yes you are." The baby, apparently unflattered, started crying with a thin, persistent wail. [...]

Zirah had hoisted the baby up in the crook of his left arm, propping up its softly fuzzed head. [...]

Zirah said vaguely, "He won't stop crying."

"And you're going to stop him by killing him?" Hastur said.

Zirah stared at him in wide-eyed innocence. He looked puzzled. "Why not?"

**
It was always the same. You'd start off having a perfectly normal conversation with Zirah, everything would be going smoothly, you started wondering why he was a demon anyway, and then he went and did something so horrifically, darkly unpleasant that you stopped wondering why he wasn't in Heaven and started wondering why he was in Hell.

**

Sometimes in the middle of the night, Zirah wrapped cold, cold fingers around [Crowley's] arm and sobbed brokenly against his shoulder, because he'd never meant to fall, the wrong thought in the wrong place at the wrong bloody time, could anyone blame him? [...] Those were the bad times.

[lovelyzelda.livejournal.com]

Like a lot of the people who got here first, one of the things I like about GO is that there really isn't any major difference between Aziraphale and Crowley--if there ever was to begin with since they both admit that the terms "good" and "evil" don't mean anything; they're just names for sides.

I don't think his behaviour would change overmuch.

Personally, I don't think his behaviour would change at all. Just look at all the potential reaons for Falling given in canon(gluttony, vanity, coveting/worshipping books, lying to God). After six thousand years of that sort of thing, what's going to make him ditch his books(especially when his shop is to him what the Bentley is to Crowley) or start acting differently?

[aura218.livejournal.com]

I don't agree that there are *no* differences between good and evil, even in Az and Cr. I think the point GO is trying to make, though, is that the differences between A and C are really no different than the differences between any ordinary pair of humans. Their personalities have developed in ways that humans' do, but the native "cultures" (if you can think of Heaven and Hell as nations or something) do influence A and C's behaviors. As do personal choice and experience.

So it's a chicken and an egg thing: Does Az continue to do good because he's always done good, and learned that doing good is pleasant? And the same in reverse for Crowley? Their jobs have conditioned their behavior only because they ARE their jobs, similar to the way a human looks at the world through the lense of their job.

So I guess the conclusion I'm coming to is: If Aziraphale fell, his personality would be whatever he chose it to be, consciously and unconconsciously, and depending on experienecs he had after his fall.

[lovelyzelda.livejournal.com]

If Aziraphale fell, his personality would be whatever he chose it to be, consciously and unconconsciously, and depending on experienecs he had after his fall.

But that seems to fit more with the uber-AU, like the ones Afrai and louiselux have both written, where Crowley and Aziraphale's positions are reversed from the beginning.

I still don't see a recently Fallen!Aziraphale changing that dramatically. But then I'm probably at a disadvantage because, like irisbleu started out with, I don't understand the desire to damn Aziraphale and save Crowley.

[unravels.livejournal.com]

Wow, I have a pretty different outlook from a lot of the commenters so far - it never occurred to me that Aziraphale would hardly change after a Fall, but maybe that's the fanfiction talking. I guess it partially depends on how you imagine the concept of a Fall. Several people have said that both A & C have reached the point where they are about equal to humans in temperament now, as angel and demon. In my mind, that's just their current starting point - for Aziraphale, being 'angelic' = being 'human with benevolent intent'. I don't understand how he can have no further to fall. Humans are not demonic, at least not the normal sort of human that A & C profess to imitate. They aren't angelic, either, so if Falling is a profoundly darker turn in one's nature, rather than a set point on a scale of good or evil, then going dark from human would be a lot farther down than going dark from angelic. Yes, there are extremely nasty humans and a lot of good points are made in GO about how much better we are at hurting each other, but I also think that for both the humans and the immortals, 'evil' is a relative term.

So for myself, I can certainly see how a truly nasty Aziraphale could be believable in a story. As far as what he would be like, you mentioned that he would find different ways than Crowley to get people on his side and I agree - I also think he'd find different ways to hurt them. I like aura218's idea that he would generally seem kind but have a cruel streak that would shock Beelzebub. You'd never see it coming unless you knew him, and if you knew him it would be even worse. I think it would be the things that were familiar, that reminded you of how he used to be, that would be the most disturbing (and from an authorial point of view, you can be pretty sure that most people reading 'knew' him the other way, so bwah ha ha!).

This probably goes back to what I think affected me so much when I read your story "Difference" the other day - I read it as kind of an alternate universe with the a_fell character because I recognized that quote, I knew you were his player, and so I had that lovely long backstory in mind. So I assumed Aziraphale repeated his comment about the driving precisely because he had said it before. He even said it in exactly the same way, as far as I remembered. I thought he wanted to mock not only his former angelic silliness, but to hurt Crowley - he knew how much hearing it twisted that way would do so. It seemed to me that it worked, to a point, and for me as a reader, at least, it was pretty devastating.

This is way too interesting. I should not be allowed to ramble about good & evil when I've had wine. *pours more*

[aura218.livejournal.com]

I should read before I post. I kinda just said the same thing, upthread.

Do you have a link to "Difference"? Sounds interesting.

ITA that fallen A is GO's big angst idea (which may explain the popularity of it, as the first responder pondered). The flip side, then, would be that C as an angel or human is the fandom's big fluff idea. Kinda neat how that works. :)

(Unless you're Alfrai and like destroying me by making them both horribly depressing.)

[unravels.livejournal.com]

Here ya go (http://www.livejournal.com/community/lower_tadfield/181526.html) - if you're not a Milliways addict I'd be curious to know if it's as rip-out-heart-and-stomp-till-pulpy as it was for me.

Yeah, that flipside of the coin thing is pretty neat, now that you mention it. I followed your link up there to the site with all of Alfrai's stuff - I think it's too late for me tonight to jump into the chaptered one you quoted, but I definitely will this week. I looked at a couple of the shorter ones, though, and now I feel the need for a gallon of hot chocolate. Ow. But in a good way.

[chrissy-sky.livejournal.com]

I dislike fallen!Aziraphale too. In my mind, if he falls, it sorta messes up the balance between him and Crowley... Or something like that. I'd explain it better if I weren't half asleep. (Of course, disliking it doesn't keep me from reading about it though. lol.)