(no subject)

[nny]

I have to say, some peoples' attitudes to Milliways absolutely bemuse me.

Milliways was designed, as much as I designed anything when absolutely bladdered on cider, to be an exceedingly playable game. What I had in mind was that you could invest as much or as little time in it as was yours to give, that you could disappear for a week and no one would take you to task over it, that it was, in fact, a game for absolutely anyone.

A long time ago I was approached and asked if someone could create a fan community, and I said no. Because a fan community distances the writers/players from the readers, and that was not how I wanted things to be - the aim of the game was to suck everyone in. You don't have to be an amazing player, you don't have to come up with hugely detailed plots, you just have to play. Have fun. That's pretty much it.

So it's a game for players, not for readers. I don't know how many people do read without playing, but I boggle slightly - not only for the obvious fact that I can't imagine not wanting to play (I've probably had nigh on thirty characters over the course of the game) but also for the fact that I don't know how they can keep up with anything that's going on. I invest as much time as I can possibly spare in this, and I still haven't the slightest clue.

So I guess... I absolutely respect people who come up with detailed plots, and if it's a lot of fun to play, more power to 'em. I know that some of the work I've seen has absolutely blown me away... but so has some of the amount of stress going into it. Because... I dunno. I don't expect anyone to read my threads except the ones as are playing, y'know? I'm playing for me, not for an audience. It's gratifying to think one or two others might be reading, but that's not why I'm doing this, because it probably is only one or two others. I think it's possible, in Milliways, to overestimate your own importance. This ain't hp_dungeons, this is what it is.

I'd be very interested to hear opinions on this.

ETA: I want to make it clear that everything here is my own opinion. I speak as a player, not as a mod. Everything in this post should say "in my opinion" in front of it, but I'm too lazy to go change and repetitize. :) It ain't just my game - it's run by myself and three other excellent mods, and it belongs to any players, too. It's collaberative. The fact that I see it a certain way doesn't mean anyone else has to.

Comments

[ignescent.livejournal.com]

As a long-time reader, who is definitely not a player, I'll say this: As much as I've been tempted time and again to create a character and join in the fun, the primary attraction I have to milliways is the amazing ability that the players have to create well written interactions and plots. I'm not a very good writer, or a very good role-player for that matter. But I am very fond of interesting character development, and enjoy reading other people takes on things. So, I spend about an hour or so scanning milliways each day for interesting entrance posts, or favorite characters, or continuations of plot points that have caught my attention. *shrugs* I'm a professional lurker, but I'd be somewhat surprised if there weren't quite a few people who read Milliways w/out playing.

That being said, I hope that most people are playing for themselves and not for the silent audience, however large or small we might be. (even if I do occasionally wish to create a character for the express purpose of posting oc commentary on how much love I have for the various bits I read) :)

[the-woodpecker.livejournal.com]

I have to say that, in contrast to Nny, I do write as much for the readers as I do for myself. And I just wanted to thank you for stepping up and saying hi, I'm a reader, etc etc.

We do have a buttload of readers, from what I've been able to glean, and they're kind of a silent majority who I wish I could say hi to more. So, um. HHHHHHHHHHHHHHALLO.

[villainny.livejournal.com]

That really, genuinely surprises me. I guess it's all according to different tastes - when I was on hp_dungeons I didn't really understand the reading of that, so much, either... and that allows audience participation. I'm really pleased that you enjoy reading it, in any case, it's just that it's not anything I'd ever really expected.

[gramarye1971]

What I had in mind was that you could invest as much or as little time in it as was yours to give, that you could disappear for a week and no one would take you to task over it...

I think this aspect of the game tends to baffle some people who are used to single-fandom games or games where there's one overarching plot structure that everyone has to follow. In those kinds of games everyone has to react to things that happen in game, but in Milliways it's entirely possible that one person's huge major event doesn't even register on another person's radar. I mean, I disappeared for about three months in autumn 2004 due to Internet constraints and time-zone difficulties, and though I know I missed a few plots then I don't think I was crippled in game because of it. Something like the Nyarlathotep plot which sucked in a significant portion of the players simply because of how many people were affected...well, that's a different matter, since it was specifically designed to be a whole-bar plot and the end game was written in advance.

I think, in a way, the demise of millichannel contributed to the sense that the game was more for the players than the readers. When there's no one place to go to see summaries of all the threads that have happened on a particular day, you have to pick and choose what to read, and that often means ignoring entire plots because you can't focus on everything at once. That's why thread-pimping interests me, because most of the time the threads that are pimped aren't Chock Full O'Plot or Canonically Significant -- they're pimped because they're funny or poignant or ironic or terribly, terribly well-written.

some of the work I've seen has absolutely blown me away... but so has some of the amount of stress going into it

The work and the stress can't entirely be separated. Character bleed contributes to it, because if your character is stressed over a plot then chances are you're going to feel some of that stress. And the desire to make something work with both canon and Millicanon is a powerful motivator, but it's hard not to tear your hair out over it -- it's almost twice as hard as writing regular fanfiction or even regular RP, in some ways.

I have experience in writing a huge plot-heavy crossover fic where things have to be planned down to the details, and there were times when I would lie awake at night trying to figure out how to make everything fit together. I've done the same thing for Milliways. It doesn't bother me so much. But it is stressful, and it can be compounded by RL pressures because unlike regular fanfiction you're often writing on a very specific deadline.

I think it's possible, in Milliways, to overestimate your own importance.

It is. Very possible. Which is why I think it's good to read other people's back_room plot-summary or thread-pimping posts, and try to remember that they've put as much thought and effort into making that plot or interaction work as you have put into your own plot or interaction. The squeeing and back-pats should also be a way of saying 'I know how hard it is to do something like that, and you've really impressed me'. We all need good feedback at times, but we all need to give it out as well.

Speaking of which, have I told you lately that you're awesome? Because you are. ^_^

[the-woodpecker.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I think there's also a self-effacing aspect of it, where "Oh, no one ever says anything to me about my threads, they must not read", when I find out randomly that muns who I never even knew were interested in my threads were following them for ages. And if muns are following, maybe readers are, too. I mean.

I guess I'm not so much against a fan comm, because they might do summaries for us, or just bolster us in ways that we don't necessarily do for each other because we're so often playing and not writing about play.

And, yeah, like Gramarye said, Millichannel is dead, long live Millichannel, but we'll figure something else out eventually.

This is incoherent, because I have a cold, so. :D

But I'm kind of divided on the issue. Because yeah, some people, myself included, can be egomaniacal at times. But then again, it's genuinely something of a pleasure to hear, at least for me, that there are readers, and that they enjoy what we do. Because for me, that's really the crux of it. Writing for myself was never the object. Writing for the enjoyment of others really was.

Anyway.

[vivien]

Well, it does come down to a "Look what I made!" kind of thing. It's very, very nice to receive praise for a thread or a plot or a character arc cos whee! Praise is fun!

I am one of those self-effacing folks - I really don't think many people read what I write. Even if it's not the case, that's how I feel, and that's okay. I mean, I want folks to read and enjoy what I've read, but I want my character interactions to make sense and be rewarding for development (or just plain silly) even more. And I want to have fun. That's the key. I always seem to, which is the best part.

You know, as for the Millichannel thing, I wonder if there would be a way to organize a weekly fandom-based wrap up. Something like "This week for the HP characters" or "This week for the folks from 24". Summaries posts where people could post key threads and summarize plot together in a main community. I only suggest going by fandom cos it's an easy way to organize things. Hmmm.

[agonistes]

Speaking as somebody who has been involved in several byzantine plots...I certainly don't expect anybody else to follow them. To some extent they're not designed for anybody else to follow them. We care about good storytelling, so we try to tell a good story. Milliways is fucking huge; people are going to miss things. That's okay. The story is for us anyhow.

If I cared about making things accessible for outside readers I certainly would not invoke literary theory as often as I do. *grins* I do that because it makes me happy, and I'm aware it makes me look horribly pretentious, and because I'm not writing for anybody but myself I really don't give a rat's ass.

And honestly, some of the stresses that go into these plots...they're easier to resolve than what most people get in real life. They're another kind of escapism. So that's all right.

Basically, there are a bunch of different playing styles, but I think everybody's still having fun anyway. *grins*

[spiderine.livejournal.com]

I rely on the nature of Milliways to be non-linear and not all-engrossing. I only have one character, but a major part of this character's nature is to go missing for a long time and then just show up out of the blue. If I couldn't play John like that, I wouldn't play him at all. I would miss him, and miss being able to drop into Milliways whenever I wish without worrying that I've been "left out" on major plots.

On the other hand, I've been thinking that there's another character whom I really want to bring into the bar, but I've been worrying that I wouldn't play her "often enough" to do it right. *Shrug*

I also write a character for hp_dungeons who is my primary alter ego, which is what makes me glad that I don't have to devote a set block of time and brain-space to Milliways.

[dramawench.livejournal.com]

I'm actually really glad you wrote this, because it's something I've been struggling with for a while now. I'm not sure if it's just my fandom within Milliways, but I feel like I'm under intense pressure to play way more than I do. My life is crazy busy - I have a full-time job, so I can't be on in the evenings until 2 or 3 in the morning.

I sometimes feel like casual players are looked down upon by the really intense players. I mean, I would love to be on 6 hours a day everyday, but that's just not feasible for me. It's hard because I love playing in Milliways, I have intense love and passion for my characters, but I hate feeling left out of things.

Sorry, this became ranty and I didn't mean for it to be!

[wickedtrue.livejournal.com]

No, you're not the only one. Sometimes, I feel pressured a bit to play more often. I don't feel looked down upon, but I do feel pressured a bit. Well, strike that, I do, but only from the newer players that are still in their first several months of 'gotta have my Miliways all the time!' mood. And that's fine. They'll understand in a few months once they feel comfortable.

Sometimes, people don't understand that I just can't devote a lot of hours to this thing like I used to, but most of the people that I've played with for years now (golly, I can say that!) understand and enjoy my casual throw ins.

Well, I like your Inara when you can make time.

[gramarye1971]

*nodnods* I know the feeling. In these past few months, I went from being a postgrad student who could stay up until all hours (and did, considering I was in Greenwich Mean Time for most of that time) to being someone with an 8-to-5 job who starts to lose writing coherency at about midnight on the weekends. And I've certainly sacrified sleep for Milliways lately, but I knew I'd have to work hard to make up for the sleep I lost.

I'm still trying to adjust from being an 'intense' player (or a fairly intense one) to being a weekends-and-the-odd-weekday-evening player. It's pretty humbling, in a way.

[jezrana.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I think it's hard to be a Firefly crew-mun and be a casual player, because they're a tight-knit group, and some of us are pretty active, and when the active ones are playing it's like "crap, my character should really be a part of that interaction, I should be playing too". Honestly, I've felt pressure to play Zoe more than I do sometimes, to keep up with others. But I don't think anyone means for it to feel like pressure or intimidation, if that helps at all. It's just...RL schedules are what they are, and some people are going to have more time than others, and that's not anyone's fault.

*hopes any of that was at all helpful*

[innerbrat]

I write for me. and only me. It's a game, not a novel I'm writing.

When people say they read my stuff - yes, I'm flattered, of course i am, but it's also kinda scary and intimidating. What if they're reading with disapproval and mocking my playing over in their journal or something? I don't want to be under that kind of scrutiny at all. I just want to plaaaay. That's not to say I don't care what people think of me -I just don't want to care.

I don't care if there is a fan community, but I will definitely read it if there is, because I'll be paranoid about opinions. And then, if they don't fangirl my characters at all, I'll feel paranoid and unpopular, in the same way that I feel just a very slight bad twinge when something I write that I think is super mega funny doesn't get milliquoted.

[wickedtrue.livejournal.com]

As one that seems to have a sign on my head that advertises 'I play in Milliways, please talk to me about it!' to strangers, I can say I've known a couple readers. My last boyfriend was a closest reader, and that was down right entertaining to find out. I still don't have a firm idea of how people can read the game, especially in the early time because we were all so cracky and made very little sense. But they did and they like it, so groovy for them! I find most readers end up playing, though, which I think is the important thing. You're supposed to play.

I think I'm weird in the game. Not only can't I devote a lot of time to well thought out plot arcs, but I don't want to very much. I love it when people can. They can paint me a beautiful picture with their details and thoughts. I love to read anything I get my hands on and some plots are such great books. I just don't have the urge to write another book for everyone. May be it's because I view this as improv theatre and the type of characters I choose to play. I can't plain very far ahead with any of them because they are very chaotic creatures. It's all about the moment, the beat, the flow, and how the puzzle pieces of the time fit together.

A thing that always confuses me is when people label players or canons as 'popular'. I just want to play a character, I don't really care about who I'm playing with or how people see me. I'm a selfish little thing here to entertain myself with my own words. It always makes me happy when people say they found this funny or that was just a great bit right there, but I'm writing it because I find it funny and I want to see that image somewhere.

When I have people I don't know chatting at me on aim because they like reading about one of my characters, I'm...not sure what to do. And I always feel bad, like I've disappointed them because I can't figure out what to say.

*shrug* That was long, but I was honest.

[agonistes]

A thing that always confuses me is when people label players or canons as 'popular'.

SRSLY. I mean...there are canons nobody knows about, and then there are canons everybody knows about, and there are some players who are new and some players who have been around for ages. That doesn't make them 'popular', or more deserving of accolades, or whatever. If I see somebody playing well, I will tell them, but I'm more likely to play with them.

Milliways really bears little resemblance to those bitchy girls from high school. We're too self-contained for that.

[jezrana.livejournal.com]

I write for people to read. That said, I also write for me. Knowing that people read my threads or plots make me happy, but so does just the act of writing it, and if no one except me and the person I'm threading with ever reads the thread, that's cool, my ego will suffer a bit and then get over it. It's not the end of the world. But people reading and hopefully liking does make me happy. It's extra. But it's extra I like.

one lurker's perspective

[(Anonymous)]

Someone told me that Marketing People have a formula for estimating "lurkers" (customers who never write the company).

Basically:
unhappy letters: (multiply by x to get actual # of unhappy customers)
but
happy letters: (multiply by, uh, 6x ??)

...See, I heard it secondhand, so I don't know the actual number. The point being, of course, that you're more likely to hear from the unsatisfied people. But the satisfied votes count for more.

I have no stats regarding us anonymous blog respondents, sorry. All I can tell you is that I've been peeking in at Milliways for a couple of months now. At least once a week. Just for fun. And I don't know a single player.

I don't much care if the players are writing "for" me or not. It's accessible to me. It's got characters I love. Some of them, I've loved for 20+ years. If the voices are right, then I want to hear them. Plot is a bonus. So far, the game's been too big for me to bother chasing down plot resolutions.

So, why not play? Lots of reasons.
1. time (already not sleeping enough)
2. inclination (just because the story's in my head doesn't mean it's clawing to get out)
3. shyness (regarding other players, and also entire internet)
4. fickleness (Sometimes I just get tired of playing. But then I feel guilty walking away from the other players.)
5. When roleplaying is good, it's very very good. I end up dreaming it. I plot while brushing my teeth. I plot while grocery shopping. Hell, I end up buying groceries in character, then have to get out of line and run back for my real food. Between "easily distracted" and "easily addicted", it's much better for me to stay out of it.

I hope it doesn't creep you out that I'm (we're) out here, observing. I'm not here to stalk. Just sort of channel surfing.

Re: one lurker's perspective

[the-woodpecker.livejournal.com]

Hello!
:-*

Just wanted to say hi and thanks for reading. And such. :D We loves you, we really really loves you.

[ms-ntropy.livejournal.com]

I'm not a writer, and as a result I'd never call what I do at Milliways Writing. I kind of feel like doing so would be an insult to writers. And no, I'm not saying that in some attempt to fish for compliments.

Milliways is hard for me because I'm not a writer. I can tell a mean story, sure, but that's different. At Milliways that isn't always enough. Heh, and sometimes it's too much. If only the lot of you could see the sheer number of handgestures I go through in trying to find the right words to describe the handgestures I'm going through...well, let's just say it's pretty damn funny and leave it at that.

I not-write for myself and the people I'm in a scene with, because when it comes right down to it, your performance is only as good as those who perform with you. And that's how I see this whole thing. It's theater. And while I know the audience is implied, I'm often times happier to avoid thinking about them. It makes me nervous in ways I'd have to flail about for a few minutes to even try and attempt to describe.

[vivien]

Karen, I hate to burst your bubble, but you are a writer. And a damn fine one at that. Silly widget. :)

[stella-polaris.livejournal.com]

I mostly just read MW for... a few months, but I mostly followed the "main characters" (to me), Aziraphael and Crowley and Tonks and Bern. And yeah, it is hard to follow what's going on, and god forbid you're away from the computer for a week... you'll have to go back and read every thread to know what's going on.

But it got too... I don't know, perhaps dark is what I mean. A/C wise I mean. But I joined as declan_gunn, played a few times, then dropped it (and to be honest, I did it because I felt like I'm not much of a player...) and got kicked out during the last cleaning, because I didn't notice the warnings^^ Heh. Yep... So now I have absolutely no effin clue what's going on.

But I'm going to reapply next month and hopefully be more active.

De-lurking

[i-am-not-i.livejournal.com]

Hello, there.

I saw a reference a while back in the Back Room to "Anthropologie-shopping hipster" reader/lurkers, which... I guess describes me pretty accurately, even if I live in L.A., not NYC.

I don't even remember how I stumbled across Milliways, almost a year ago now, but went pretty quickly from "Uh.... WTF???" to "wow! Literate! And compelling!" and now spend far, faaaaaaaaaar too much time killing time at work reading the threads (and I actually have what I am assured is a career, rather than a job, which is why you won't find any personal info on this LJ (I set it up to read the stuff over at the "nifeandaccurate" comm)). I don't come anywhere close to following even a significant portion of the threads, or even those of every canon that I actually know and like, but will sometimes be lured by the quality of the writing into following a character I otherwise wouldn't (Raven the deity is a prime example).

I love the new tag system, as it makes it much easier for me to check on the characters I already know I love. That said, I will probably still peruse the main pages from time to time, because if it weren't for Milliways (brace yourselves) I wouldn't have watched Firefly. Okay, that's not true... but I wouldn't have watched it before I saw Serenity.

As for playing: well, honestly, I can't think of a character I'd really like to play. Or, rather, I can think of characters that I'd like to play, but not what I'd want to do with them. I LIKE just reading the threads, honestly, and try to be enough of an adult to remind myself that no one is doing this for MY amusement and that things will be resolved or not in the players' own good time (if I had my way, both Lucifer and Kassandra would be around waaaaaaaaaaaay more often).

The thing that just BOGGLES MY MIND, however, is the sheer number of people who seem to think that the game should revolve around... them? As an incorrigibly curious person, I poked around a bit and found various of the mun journals, some of which I read occasionally, some of which I read often, because many of the Milliways players are curious and literate people who have interesting thoughts and opinions and recomendations of interesting books, news stories, etc. Hence, I've seen a lot of the weird complaining and wankery that goes on, and I just don't understand it. You seem to have created a rather marvellous thing that allows a lot of people a fascinating creative outlet (and, frankly, despite all the baddies floating about, Milliways is far more my idea of heaven than is that of blissful nothingness) and is capable of provoking genuinely intricate and philosophical storytelling. So, mad props to you and the other mods and players. And thanks for the diversion. It's much appreciated.

Re: De-lurking

[vivien]

This is so... cool! I am so glad you like to read Mways. Even if you never have read my characters and never will, it's just neat to hear this from you. I am so proud of this connmunity.

[metallumai.livejournal.com]

When I tried Milliways, for the brief time that I was Perdita, it was tremendous fun! I did it for the experience of writing and rp-ing, which I'd never done before, but I couldn't keep it up-- I hadn't enough time and I write very slowly.

But it was fun, after that (still is, on occasion) to check in and watch the game. So yeah, I like reading. I can learn from it, and I have grown fond of some of the characters. Including some of the ones who are still there. Now and then I'll still pull it up to see if the angel and/or the demon is in the bar....

I expect the more 'popular' characters are the ones who come up with the best plots and lines, you know.

[bcgphoenix]

I approach playing in Milliways with the same attitude I approach writing fanfic: if it's being posted on the 'net, with that potential for anyone to find it, I want what people see to be halfway decent. Whether or not anybody actually does see it doesn't matter so much -- just knowing that the potential exists helps me make sure that, if nothing else, I put effort into what I'm doing.

Which is why I'm a terminally slow tagger with anybody but Wash and have such a hard time juggling multiple characters. Er. *eyedart*

The structure of Milliways means that, yeah, it's not going to be my best writing, and I'll have a *flail*-moment every so often when I look at my old threads, wondering what an outside reader would think if they found them. But when you get down to it? I'm having LOADS of fun, I'm (usually) proud of what I'm doing, and thus: s'cool. :)

[saddle_tramp]

I'm still here lurking, though I don't get to read as much as I'd like anymore. I still think it's the best-run RP I've ever seen in ten years of RPing online.

One of these days I hope to drag my girlfriend into Milliways so we can RP there instead of just RPing privately 8 hours a night. *grins* I'm still trying to convince her Milliways isn't like the last RP we were dragged into running, and Milliwaysers aren't all rabid fangirls in search of attention. ;-D

[unravels.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a former reader-lurker, I will shamefully admit that I looked everywhere for a fan community for Milliways when I first found it. At first I was hoping for some help catching up on backstories, but eventually I wanted a community because I loved what I was reading, and I was hoping to find a group of like-minded maniacs.

I'd also just come from Potter fandom and the fairly close-knit fan community for nocturne_alley. I'd really enjoyed the way that readers of the game could help each other understand how the plots fit together, speculate on what might happen, occasionally ask the players or characters questions, that kind of thing. I was confused on a couple of plot points but didn't know who to ask, and tracking the muns down as an outsider seemed stalkerish. ;) I just liked the stories and wanted to talk about them long before I was interested in playing.

Anyway, I can definitely understand your position - fan communities can sometimes be their own worst enemy. And maybe for me the fact that there wasn't one may eventually have helped to get me thinking about tossing in a character of my own. You've got me wondering now, though, whether there are others wandering around the edges who just want to bond with other voyeurs...

[the-woodpecker.livejournal.com]

Hey hey hey, you were in nraged too? I loved it. :D

I cried like a little girl when that RP died.

[rowanberries.livejournal.com]

I write as a combination, I guess. But it will always be, first and foremost, for myself. Anything I do, I do because I enjoy it.

But on the flipside, it's an open community, so I want anything people might read to be good, and hearing that people do is always pleasing.

*Shrugs* We all have different preferences.

[jumperkid.livejournal.com]

I am, as I have proudly dubbed myself, a professional spectator. I tried to have a character for a short period of time, and found that I just preferred to read. It was a combination of time issues and just being shy. But I have been a faithful reader for...about a year and a half now? There are only a few characters that I care about, Aziraphael and Crowley being the main two. If I don't always know what's going on, I don't really care because in the long run the interactions are what I enjoy. So, I think you're doin' fine and dandy! And thanks for coming up with the idea cos it was a good one!