I'd been thinking about making a heavily filtered post about this for a few days, mostly because it's been gnawing at my insides and I felt like I just had to get it out there, rather than just keep stewing in my own poison.
But then this popped up on my friendslist, and... I dunno. Seems to me that if it's anything, it's a sign. And I think I'd prefer to be honest with you now - you know me and how I nurse things.
I've been finding it... increasingly difficult to interact with you lately, notably since a little bit after the arthritis kicked in. It's that, you know, I went through the same thing two years back - the arthritis, the massive hair loss, the complete death of appetite - and you'd think, if anything, that would make me more sympathetic. Ahaha. :/
Actually, what tends to happen is that, even though I know from experience how agonising it is, every time you give it as a reason for bailing on a conversation, or dropping a thread, or not doing something you said you'd do, I just... I wig out. I see red, and all I can think is I never dropped the ball when I was going through this, I always got everything done, I never got no doctors that were at least trying to give me pain meds, I never got no sick-note, I just had to suck it up and go to class and get everything done, and I never moaned so much about it, though hell, maybe I should have, cos I never got no flist-clubbing-in feel-better presents, and I suffered the consequences of my stiff upper lip and I had a breakdown that winter and I nearly failed out of class and so on and so forth. And the extent of it is just... unbelievable, and it keeps coming until I feel like I'm choking on my own fucking bile.
And I just. I know under even the best of circumstances, I am a cunt with a sense of entitlement, but.
How repulsive even is that?
I'm mad at you basically because you're getting better medical treatment.
Anyway, I dunno. There you have it. It's not an excuse for my behaviour, but I guess it's an explanation. Maybe it won't rot my insides so much now, from bottling it up. I just still feel like such an ugly person right now.
You don't need to, unless you want to. I just wanted to get it out there, and not let it be another thing that I just keep carrying with me and carrying with me. And because it's (obviously) something I've realised I really haven't gotten over, and maybe now I can - or try, at least.
I'm not going anonymous like the douche above me, because I respect you more than that.
It's clear that this is painful for you, and this is the worst venue ever to respond, but I feel, ha, entitled to, after having a run-in with this side of you not so long ago. If you don't find a way to get over this irrational self-righteous martyrdom you're pulling lately and claw your way into an even mildly empathetic state of mind, then... I don't know what.
It's not just about Nny. It's incredibly hurtful to see this coming from you, because every time we have an argument or discussion, I keep thinking you're going to step back and say, 'Gosh. You know, I'm pretty awesome for doing the things that I do. I'm talented and clever and rare. It's completely unfair for me to hold others to the standards to which I hold myself, because our talents and situations are completely different, and my standards are too high even for me."
But I don't know if that's ever gonna happen. I wish it would.
I am with you on the irrational self-righteous martyrdom. I have a secret and self-centred paranoia where I take everything as an slight against me personally, because everyone hates me/I'm not worth the effort/etc, etc, ad nauseam. Which is retarded enough, except I'm also aggressive and vindictive, and so I end up being, like, militantly Wronged, and then lashing back or taking it out on others. It's not like I haven't spent time analysing this trait in myself, it's just that... when I feel slighted, it all goes out the window. And the additional unresolved bitterness stemming from Mystery Illness is just compounding this and making it so much worse.
The standards to which I hold myself and others... I don't know. I mean, I know, logically, that holding others to these standards is only going to result in disappointment (and then anger, cf. above), but I just... I don't know. I don't know where they came from, or why I do it, just that I've always done it. I've tried to, like, consciously disabuse myself of expectations before, but I still wind up doing it subconsciously. I am going to have to figure out what this is, so I can do something about it, I just... don't know where to start.
I think it has to do with conditioning yourself to a completely different mindset when encountering others. What it sounds like, when you read between the lines, is that you're trying to resign yourself to disappointment in others. Maybe the thing to try to do is to focus not so much on what people aren't able to do for you and with you, but on what people can do.
I mean, for example: I cannot freakin make you a pretty layout as you have done for me so many times. Believe me. I have stared at Dreamweaver until my eyes bled, and I have read tutorials, and I have scoured the Photoshop classroom in a book for weeks on end trying to learn the things you know, and trying to retain them. But that is not a talent that I have latently resting in me, so it's all extremely hard, and I realized. I can write you pretty things. I can talk smack and crack and whatever for hours. And I can be there when you're down and out as well as when you're up. So maybe the things I can do aren't as tangible as the things you can do, but they do exist, and they are valid, and they do contribute.
Maybe when you're feeling this way, sitting down and listing the great things about your friends would help? I don't know. I'm not a psychologist or a counselor. But it's just something I thought of.
Maybe you're obliquely onto something there - it might be something to do with the kind of freakish hyperfocus I get. So if, to take the example and run with it, there was a team layout competition, I would throw myself into it, and the layout competition would be the only thing in the world that matters ever, and therefore anyone on my layout team who falls down on layouting is worthless (and then: they're not bothering because they hate me and so on and so forth, as above).
(And then conversely, if I am... on a rounders team, and can't run fast enough to catch the ball, because the game is the only thing in the world that matters ever, I am worthless, and everyone must hate me, so blah blah blah.)
All of this goes to show that I majored in the wrong thing in college. But I knew that.
I can think of examples more close to home, but this is a public venue. But yes. I think that within a certain social structure which shall remain oblique, you fulfill a role. That role tends to be more back end stuff like layouty and maintenance. You're good at it, you rock it out, and you get it done -- in fact, you get things done that no one else can get done, and I don't know if you realize that. Nobody has the skills you have. Conversely, there are others who excel at front-end tasks that tend, from my observations, to drive you slightly batshit. So maybe looking at it that way, instead of looking critically at your peers for not doing the things you do, is the way into a better relationship all around.
If you know that much about yourself -- I strongly suggest that you try and do something about it. It's a very good thing that you're aware of it, and I am sure you can act on it somehow.
Trust me on this, expecting too much from yourself or other people will make your life HELL. I'm not even thinking of the other people right now (though I bristle at the implications of what you said about Nny), I'm just thinking of YOU.
People will end up running away from you if you are never satisfied with what they can willingly give you, because it will get too hard for them to be the person you want them to be, and it will never be enough anyways. (I know what I am saying: my mum is like that, only she is not aware of it. Why do you think I moved away from her, as far away as I could without falling off the planet?)
And on a side note, regarding what you said to Nny?
OK, so there is this: from my point of view (admittedly I don't know you well, but I am twice your age and I have more life experience than you do so -- I'll give you my point of view anyways.) people who are in pain find ways to deal with the pain. And I think that for you, Milliways is often a priority in that it helps you get through difficult moment. You play BECAUSE you are in pain in RL and somehow it helps you along.
Whereas I think Nny might still be trying to follow up on all her commitments DESPITE the pain.
As another who holds herself to stupidly-high standards, I think it's brave of you to admit and talk and open discussion and apologise and acknowledge that it's a you problem (as it's a me problem for me!), and not that of your friends. Except, you know, in that friends have to deal with us. 8P
Nothing can be resolved without communication. I sincerely hope you two manage to work things out -- not here and now, I mean in private e-mail (or phone), taking sufficiant time to establish respectful perspective. Because you work so damn well together. (Yes, this last is a little bit selfish of me, because I'd hate to miss out on the joy that is your interaction on Milliways.)
You hold yourself to impossible standards, we both know that, and it always distresses me when you do because the things you do achieve are so impressive. Not to mention the fact that you would have a hell of a lot more fun and a hell of a lot less stress, both in Milliways and in RL, if you didn't.
You don't get to hold me to those standards, too. It's not fair. It never has been. All it's ever done is make me feel like shit.
Your posting this has seriously rocked me and I don't know how to deal with it.
It would be dumb of me to not expect it to be upsetting, but that wasn't the intent behind it. I just... wanted to make the point that I get that it's me, and not you, who's at fault, and to shed a bit of light on the resentments and old issues that both cause that, and make me upset and angry enough to forget it.
This comes across less as confession and apology than as an attempt, even if subconscious, to make Nny feel guilty because she's not handling a difficult illness as well as you believe that you did. The irrational self-righteous martyrdom is clear. What's not clear is why you felt it necessary to be an irrational self-righteous martyr in what you claim is an apology to the person you've hurt with this behavior.
If you needed to vent about the specific ugliness of your behavior to someone, I don't think anyone would fault you for that. But why did you choose to do so where it could continue to hurt Nny? Why use details that would inevitably make her feel upset and guilty? Why try to make your irrational response her problem too?
If I'd seen a post from you saying something along the lines of "I'm having irrational responses to your medical issues because of painful comparisons to my own. I'm sorry and I'm working on it." I would have had sympathy and respect for that. It's honest, but not the kind of "I want to be honest" that allows people to rationalize sharing hurtful information that may make them feel better but makes the recipient feel worse.
This seems like just more of the problem disguised as an attempt at a solution.
I never made any attempt to disguise the fact that the post was me venting as well as apologising. I did intend originally to do it privately, but, seeing the meme, and talking about secrets, just... convinced me to try to just spout everything into the comment box as an attempt to get everything out into the open. If I don't do that, I stew on it for longer, and it gets progressively and exponentially worse; anyone who knows me will tell you that. Some of the worst conflicts between myself and Nny, and myself and others, have arisen because I've just nursed things for months instead of being entirely open and upfront about the problem early on.
I think also, perhaps, you are misinterpreting the sentiments - awful as they are - contained within the... monologue, for want of a better word, as being the message I want to get across, when I am trying to use the monologue to illustrate my train of thought and why I get angry; they are a conscious demonstration of the fact the sentiments are awful, a conscious drawing of attention to the fact that I'm being a self-righteous martyr. The message I want to get across is 'these are the kinds of thoughts I think, but I recognise that I think them, and that they are repulsive'.
Oh, I do not have any objection to venting instead of stewing or getting things out into the open. What I question is why this particular information needed to be vented here in order for you to deal with it.
It may seem clear to you that the thoughts in the monologue are merely meant as an illustration of your thought process, but that doesn't change the fact that they are extremely hurtful and they are now known to Nny when it seems like they weren't before. If you were aware enough of your behavior and what causes it to write this post, then I don't know why you needed to share exactly how you got there when that process contains such ugly thoughts. It's admirable not to be afraid to share ugly thoughts, because we do all have them. But it's extremely disingenous to say you're doing so merely as an illustration of thought process when you post them where they can be read by someone who will be very hurt by them.
Openness and honesty are excellent things, but they don't excuse you from considering the consequences and impact of what you're being honest and open about. I question the necessity of Nny needing to know exactly how ugly these thoughts about her are in order to understand your process. I think a more filtered post would have served the same purposes of drawing attention to the problem and being a conscious demonstration of it, and it would have kept the behavior you're trying to alter from inflicting more hurt.
But it's extremely disingenous to say you're doing so merely as an illustration of thought process when you post them where they can be read by someone who will be very hurt by them.
The problem inherent in that, though, is that the person who will be hurt by them is the person I wanted to illustrate them for, to try and make understand why I react the way I do, without any pretensions at covering up, without the safety net of making myself look a little less bad.
Reading back, the post isn't well-constructed - by which I mean, it maybe doesn't convey the information in the way it was meant; in that respect, I'll agree with you that I would have been better off venting filteredly, and then analysing what came out before making a better-thought-out post. I simply had semi-resolved to make a filtered post, saw the meme, and decided to just close my eyes and take the plunge, as it were, before I could chicken out of doing it altogether.
P.S. You really don't have to be anonymous; if nothing else, I appreciate the way your comments have made me look at even my conscious attempt to be objective about my issues in the light of, uh... my issues.
You bring up some really important points, here, and I second the call for non-anonymity, because Rami just pinged me to tell me how awesome I am because she thought you were me. Or I was you. Or whatever.
I was flattered, because you're much more eloquent than I.
Thank you for being a hell of a lot more coherent about this than I could be. Through your discussion I understand better the spirit in which Sophie's comment was made, and as a result I am rather less foetal. I very much appreciate your input.
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momijizukamori
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 07:55 am (UTC)But then this popped up on my friendslist, and... I dunno. Seems to me that if it's anything, it's a sign. And I think I'd prefer to be honest with you now - you know me and how I nurse things.
I've been finding it... increasingly difficult to interact with you lately, notably since a little bit after the arthritis kicked in. It's that, you know, I went through the same thing two years back - the arthritis, the massive hair loss, the complete death of appetite - and you'd think, if anything, that would make me more sympathetic. Ahaha. :/
Actually, what tends to happen is that, even though I know from experience how agonising it is, every time you give it as a reason for bailing on a conversation, or dropping a thread, or not doing something you said you'd do, I just... I wig out. I see red, and all I can think is I never dropped the ball when I was going through this, I always got everything done, I never got no doctors that were at least trying to give me pain meds, I never got no sick-note, I just had to suck it up and go to class and get everything done, and I never moaned so much about it, though hell, maybe I should have, cos I never got no flist-clubbing-in feel-better presents, and I suffered the consequences of my stiff upper lip and I had a breakdown that winter and I nearly failed out of class and so on and so forth. And the extent of it is just... unbelievable, and it keeps coming until I feel like I'm choking on my own fucking bile.
And I just. I know under even the best of circumstances, I am a cunt with a sense of entitlement, but.
How repulsive even is that?
I'm mad at you basically because you're getting better medical treatment.
Anyway, I dunno. There you have it. It's not an excuse for my behaviour, but I guess it's an explanation. Maybe it won't rot my insides so much now, from bottling it up. I just still feel like such an ugly person right now.
I'm sorry.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 09:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 03:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 03:09 pm (UTC)Yes, you are.
I've thought that for a long time, actually -- I guess that's my secret.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 03:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 03:23 pm (UTC)It's clear that this is painful for you, and this is the worst venue ever to respond, but I feel, ha, entitled to, after having a run-in with this side of you not so long ago. If you don't find a way to get over this irrational self-righteous martyrdom you're pulling lately and claw your way into an even mildly empathetic state of mind, then... I don't know what.
It's not just about Nny. It's incredibly hurtful to see this coming from you, because every time we have an argument or discussion, I keep thinking you're going to step back and say, 'Gosh. You know, I'm pretty awesome for doing the things that I do. I'm talented and clever and rare. It's completely unfair for me to hold others to the standards to which I hold myself, because our talents and situations are completely different, and my standards are too high even for me."
But I don't know if that's ever gonna happen. I wish it would.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 03:46 pm (UTC)The standards to which I hold myself and others... I don't know. I mean, I know, logically, that holding others to these standards is only going to result in disappointment (and then anger, cf. above), but I just... I don't know. I don't know where they came from, or why I do it, just that I've always done it. I've tried to, like, consciously disabuse myself of expectations before, but I still wind up doing it subconsciously. I am going to have to figure out what this is, so I can do something about it, I just... don't know where to start.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 03:53 pm (UTC)I mean, for example: I cannot freakin make you a pretty layout as you have done for me so many times. Believe me. I have stared at Dreamweaver until my eyes bled, and I have read tutorials, and I have scoured the Photoshop classroom in a book for weeks on end trying to learn the things you know, and trying to retain them. But that is not a talent that I have latently resting in me, so it's all extremely hard, and I realized. I can write you pretty things. I can talk smack and crack and whatever for hours. And I can be there when you're down and out as well as when you're up. So maybe the things I can do aren't as tangible as the things you can do, but they do exist, and they are valid, and they do contribute.
Maybe when you're feeling this way, sitting down and listing the great things about your friends would help? I don't know. I'm not a psychologist or a counselor. But it's just something I thought of.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 04:03 pm (UTC)(And then conversely, if I am... on a rounders team, and can't run fast enough to catch the ball, because the game is the only thing in the world that matters ever, I am worthless, and everyone must hate me, so blah blah blah.)
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 04:09 pm (UTC)I can think of examples more close to home, but this is a public venue. But yes. I think that within a certain social structure which shall remain oblique, you fulfill a role. That role tends to be more back end stuff like layouty and maintenance. You're good at it, you rock it out, and you get it done -- in fact, you get things done that no one else can get done, and I don't know if you realize that. Nobody has the skills you have. Conversely, there are others who excel at front-end tasks that tend, from my observations, to drive you slightly batshit. So maybe looking at it that way, instead of looking critically at your peers for not doing the things you do, is the way into a better relationship all around.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-30 09:52 pm (UTC)Trust me on this, expecting too much from yourself or other people will make your life HELL. I'm not even thinking of the other people right now (though I bristle at the implications of what you said about Nny), I'm just thinking of YOU.
People will end up running away from you if you are never satisfied with what they can willingly give you, because it will get too hard for them to be the person you want them to be, and it will never be enough anyways. (I know what I am saying: my mum is like that, only she is not aware of it. Why do you think I moved away from her, as far away as I could without falling off the planet?)
And on a side note, regarding what you said to Nny?
OK, so there is this: from my point of view (admittedly I don't know you well, but I am twice your age and I have more life experience than you do so -- I'll give you my point of view anyways.) people who are in pain find ways to deal with the pain. And I think that for you, Milliways is often a priority in that it helps you get through difficult moment. You play BECAUSE you are in pain in RL and somehow it helps you along.
Whereas I think Nny might still be trying to follow up on all her commitments DESPITE the pain.
And that makes a huge difference.
Just my two cents.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 06:39 pm (UTC)Nothing can be resolved without communication. I sincerely hope you two manage to work things out -- not here and now, I mean in private e-mail (or phone), taking sufficiant time to establish respectful perspective. Because you work so damn well together. (Yes, this last is a little bit selfish of me, because I'd hate to miss out on the joy that is your interaction on Milliways.)
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 04:42 pm (UTC)You don't get to hold me to those standards, too. It's not fair. It never has been. All it's ever done is make me feel like shit.
Your posting this has seriously rocked me and I don't know how to deal with it.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 04:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 06:14 pm (UTC)If you needed to vent about the specific ugliness of your behavior to someone, I don't think anyone would fault you for that. But why did you choose to do so where it could continue to hurt Nny? Why use details that would inevitably make her feel upset and guilty? Why try to make your irrational response her problem too?
If I'd seen a post from you saying something along the lines of "I'm having irrational responses to your medical issues because of painful comparisons to my own. I'm sorry and I'm working on it." I would have had sympathy and respect for that. It's honest, but not the kind of "I want to be honest" that allows people to rationalize sharing hurtful information that may make them feel better but makes the recipient feel worse.
This seems like just more of the problem disguised as an attempt at a solution.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 06:39 pm (UTC)I think also, perhaps, you are misinterpreting the sentiments - awful as they are - contained within the... monologue, for want of a better word, as being the message I want to get across, when I am trying to use the monologue to illustrate my train of thought and why I get angry; they are a conscious demonstration of the fact the sentiments are awful, a conscious drawing of attention to the fact that I'm being a self-righteous martyr. The message I want to get across is 'these are the kinds of thoughts I think, but I recognise that I think them, and that they are repulsive'.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 07:08 pm (UTC)It may seem clear to you that the thoughts in the monologue are merely meant as an illustration of your thought process, but that doesn't change the fact that they are extremely hurtful and they are now known to Nny when it seems like they weren't before. If you were aware enough of your behavior and what causes it to write this post, then I don't know why you needed to share exactly how you got there when that process contains such ugly thoughts. It's admirable not to be afraid to share ugly thoughts, because we do all have them. But it's extremely disingenous to say you're doing so merely as an illustration of thought process when you post them where they can be read by someone who will be very hurt by them.
Openness and honesty are excellent things, but they don't excuse you from considering the consequences and impact of what you're being honest and open about. I question the necessity of Nny needing to know exactly how ugly these thoughts about her are in order to understand your process. I think a more filtered post would have served the same purposes of drawing attention to the problem and being a conscious demonstration of it, and it would have kept the behavior you're trying to alter from inflicting more hurt.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 07:29 pm (UTC)The problem inherent in that, though, is that the person who will be hurt by them is the person I wanted to illustrate them for, to try and make understand why I react the way I do, without any pretensions at covering up, without the safety net of making myself look a little less bad.
Reading back, the post isn't well-constructed - by which I mean, it maybe doesn't convey the information in the way it was meant; in that respect, I'll agree with you that I would have been better off venting filteredly, and then analysing what came out before making a better-thought-out post. I simply had semi-resolved to make a filtered post, saw the meme, and decided to just close my eyes and take the plunge, as it were, before I could chicken out of doing it altogether.
P.S. You really don't have to be anonymous; if nothing else, I appreciate the way your comments have made me look at even my conscious attempt to be objective about my issues in the light of, uh... my issues.
no subject
Date: 2006-11-29 08:11 pm (UTC)I was flattered, because you're much more eloquent than I.
(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2006-11-29 09:50 pm (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-11-30 10:01 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2006-11-30 07:43 pm (UTC)So much so. Starting with this fucking confessional thing to make yourself feel better and Nny worse, and moving backwards.
(frozen) no subject
Date: 2006-11-30 08:34 pm (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2006-12-01 09:49 am (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2006-12-01 11:24 am (UTC)(frozen) no subject
Date: 2006-11-30 10:02 pm (UTC)